Akande Davis 0:03
Welcome back to another episode of Call It RevOps. And today we’re talking about something that I think is super interesting, which is this idea on how CMOs and CROs are actually incentivized to disagree. So sales and marketing. Yeah, I mean it’s not new. It’s not new. Sales and marketing have always been at odds, but what’s new is how visible it is becoming to the boards, right? People are actually seeing this in a real uh scenario, especially when tough questions get asked. So growth is harder, budgets are going to be tighter, and good economy, bad economy, budgets always seem to be shrinking. And the tension between the CMO and the CRO, it’s not just annoying, it’s risky.
Raja Walia 0:41
Yeah. And I want to clarify, like, this is this isn’t about alignment. I feel like that topic uh no one really gives a shit about anymore. Like no one wakes up and says, you know what, I really need to align with the department. Um, this is about credibility, power, and really who’s going to own the revenue story and what happens when things go sideways, right? Like when we say that CMOs and CROs aren’t incentivized to agree, we are really pretending otherwise if we disagree with that statement. They are not. They’re two different mentalities, two different departments. And this is why your go-to-market motion keeps breaking. Because the leadership, you know, let’s forget alignment on every other level. Leadership isn’t incentivized. There’s no reason for them to get on the same page. There’s no fundamentally, there’s no reason why a CMO and a CRO needs to get need to be aligned. And you and leadership in, you know, in businesses incentivize it. Like they they’re like, yes, like you know, it’s kind of like illegal fighting. Like you’re just leadership just throwing money on the ring and betting on one person versus the other person, and they’re the ones in the ring going at it.
Akande Davis 1:52
You know, you you commonly have heard the best way to have a lot of people come to your store is to have the exact same kind of store open across the street, like two gas stations. It actually gets more people there. I mean, CMOs and CROs are are designed to disagree, not by accident, they’re different jobs and they have different survival games. Uh, for a CMO, I think that’s the the the idea that it’s built around influence and demand gen and uh awareness, whereas a CRO role is really a number and a forecast and a clear scoreboard. If you aren’t hitting those numbers, that’s a problem. So two completely different people, two completely different roles in two completely different sets of goals or things that they need to do to actually make their job a success.
Raja Walia 2:34
Yeah, I mean, like the CRO survives and is pretty much judged on being right and being right right now. Like as of yesterday, as of your sales kickoff in January, as of two weeks ago, that is when the CRO, and that is how the CRO has to thrive because once again, it’s it’s based off on a clear-cut forecast. Well, a CMO survives by being right eventually, right? And within those two statements, that’s where the pressure hits, right? The CRO can point to a number and say, we’re not hitting this. And the CMO has to explain this narrative, like this gap of where what’s going to happen in three months. And a CRO is like, hey, you didn’t do this last week, you know, and a CMO at that point is gonna be like, well, it’s a it’s a it’s a long-term play. And that is why that distrust starts immediately. And I mean, I wouldn’t say immediately, that’s why the distrust starts, and that’s why immediately those conversation points break down. And yeah, the way that everything is being incentivized in order to instead of being judged as a business for success, we’re judging two different departments that control the trajectory of your business in completely two different I mean, time periods, right? Like we are like one is right now, the other, hey, let’s see what we did in four months.
Akande Davis 3:54
Yeah, I mean, one one you could point to and and you know, pull up and say, okay, well, how much revenue did you generate? And then marketing has to say, well, how much revenue did you help generate? Well, marketing in in that scoreboard, it’s very easy for marketing to be like, well, I mean, we’re doing our job, but on the flip side, it’s a little bit more difficult for the CRO.
Raja Walia 4:12
If you were to switch those shoes, could you imagine a buying time frame of like 12 months? Like we work with a company that had a buying time frame of 12 months. How on how how is a CRO and a CMO supposed to be incentivized? And how does a CMO even show, to your point, influence on an opportunity that took 12 months, right? Like the there’s so many variables that just forces them to hate each other.
Akande Davis 4:39
Yeah. And if you’re if the market perception is what tipped tipped that person in favor, is that being accounted for anywhere? How do how do you track that as well? Both both of these roles have very uh challenging circumstances. Um, and I think I think that kind of leads into maybe let’s talk about CMOs first because marketing seems to always end up on the defense, right? When revenue slows down, the conversation doesn’t start typically with the sales execution, usually starts with pipeline quality. You know, we’re not able to close these deals because the leads that we’re getting, the people that we’re talking to, uh, they don’t see the value. They’re not getting it. We’re not making sense. So marketing becomes an easy place to kind of look for for that particular narrative, if you will.
Raja Walia 5:20
Right. Well, and and that’s why the thing is like marketing is not losing in your scenario or in your example is it’s not losing credibility because it’s bad, it’s losing credibility because it can’t prove it right now. Once again, marketing is long-term. And the CRO is saying we don’t have a lot of leads. Why? We have a quota to hit this month, we have a quota to hit this quarter. And the way that credibility we lose marketing loses credibility because it cannot prove causality the way sales can. Sales is very easy, it’s a numerical number. A numerical number, I guess it’s a numerical way of measuring things, right? This is the number that we have to hit. And that’s where bad leads start coming down the pipeline. Because then, uh, in that case, when marketing ends up on the defensive, it says, Well, give me more leads. And then, you know, marketing says, All right, I’ll give you more leads. You open the floodgates. Here’s a thousand leads. Now work with them, right? The conversation then shifts from strategic kind of game plan to how many leads do I get? I’m gonna follow up with them. And that’s really where, and in that moment, the CMO can’t explain impact in business terms. The CRO controls the room. Like they’re the ones who are like, hey, we have a thousand leads, get at them. Is one of them going to close? We’ll figure it out.
Akande Davis 6:42
Well, and the fight for the narrative kind of comes up, right? Because um, when you think about the modern technology stack that we have available, cross-sales, marketing, customer success, uh product, really data was intended to be introduced to help settle these debates. So if something’s not going right, where’s the data leading us? What where’s the data saying it? But it actually made it worse because attribution models, dashboards, and influence reports don’t really clarify ownership. They just turn it and kind of to the into into an exercise, right? Like I hate to say blame game, but in many respects, that’s kind of what it is.
Raja Walia 7:14
I would I would say, I wouldn’t even say it’s a blame game. I think it’s a version of that. And it’s also a look at me. I did such a cool thing. This is my this is mine. If you haven’t seen our episode on revenue architecture versus revenue theater, we dive into this very specific uh conversation about how analytics and actually attribution, multi-touch attribution, isn’t really about truth anymore. It’s about control. It’s a theater that we’re presenting and a narrative that we’re controlling based off on the department that has control of it at that moment in time. And whoever controls that revenue narrative controls budget, head count, and that’s it. Like, you know, and that’s why these fights never end, because they’re not about data, they’re about leverage. I have leverage because I did this, so therefore I should get more budget. Where and then at that point, where’s budget going to get taken over taken away from? If your budget is X amount of dollars, well, you’re gonna start pulling internally from different departments. That’s why ops always feels like they’re understaffed. So the long-term play that marketing has to do doesn’t materialize in the now, it materializes in the future. Well, CRO has the budget now. So now the future comes and you’re like, hey, what’s our plan? We don’t have any budget for it. That’s how these budget conversations kind of like, you know, transpire over time.
Akande Davis 8:28
Yeah. And I mean, if if you needed a stronger reason to incentivize two people to disagree, put budget in there. That’s it. Yeah, that’s that’s it, man. If you wanted to create tension, you add in a budget. But there is a reason why that tension is designed to be that way. Um, so many companies will structure their go-to-market in different ways. Um, but you have to always kind of guarantee that disagreement. You have to have different timelines, different accountability, different definitions of success. Um it’s it’s a bummer, but people are typically shocked when trust is lost. It’s bound to happen, especially when they’re incentivized over budget, over things that they have to fight for.
Raja Walia 9:07
And and here’s the thing, and this is where I I will step back on every single person that either points the finger at a CRO and points the finger at CMO, and I will point internally at myself. And the hard truth is that the CEO, the board, whoever it is, didn’t create this misalignment by accident. We are responsible, like the owner of the company, you know, at varying levels of the company are the ones responsible for this, is because we we bake it in. You have two executives that overlap responsibility with different scorecards. That’s like telling someone to score a touchdown on a baseball field. And then you said, you know what, figure that shit out. That’s not leadership, right?
Akande Davis 9:48
Like that’s score a touchdown on a baseball field. Yeah, yeah.
Raja Walia 9:51
You know what I mean? Like it’s so that’s what I’m saying. It’s that’s and that’s not leadership. So it’s really not their fault, right? Like they’re the siblings of you know, this the this family, this company family, and you know, the the leaders, aka the parents are just hey, you know what, figure it out. You know, you guys are fighting, figure it out. But we really need, we really need to get to vacation on time. We need to get to school on time, figure it out, brush your teeth. I don’t know how you do it. I don’t know, I don’t care whose toothbrush you use, I don’t care whose toothpaste it is, I don’t care which stool that you stand on, these are all personal references, mind you, but figure it out because I need to drop you off at school without any helping hand whatsoever.
Akande Davis 10:32
And and I think, you know, if we were to we we can kind of reference that same sort of thing where we we we need as leadership, oftentimes, like you said yourself in that CEO position, we need this to be resolved. I think CMOs and CROs have to actually say what they need and what they want. I I think if we were to look at this from the executive standpoint, CMOs want staying power and relevance. You know, we’ve covered this many times, but the CMOs have short tenure. Uh, I think that’s a scary thing and definitely something that they they want. They want to be able to stick around in that.
Raja Walia 11:02
Especially because they’re incentivized for long-term. Yeah. So they’re the they have the shortest, they have the CMOs have the shortest tenure, but they’re incentivized for long-term growth of the company, but they’re the ones who get cut the fastest. Make it make sense.
Akande Davis 11:17
Exactly. And on the flip side, CROs, they just want predictability and control. They want to know reliably what their pipeline’s gonna look like. They want control um over the team that they’re working with, over the technology that they need to execute on it. Um, I think realistically, they just want to survive the next board meeting and not be turned into scary. Yeah, they don’t want to have the finger pointed out. Exactly. But if you’re walking in there, things aren’t looking good, somebody’s got to take the blame. And that’s when that I think that tension initially starts.
Raja Walia 11:46
It’s like what Marshall Lynch said, right? I’m just here not to get fined. Like that’s just all I’m trying to do. I’m just here not to get fined. And honestly, I don’t even think it’s about alignment or agreeing anymore, to tell you the truth. Like this, like I think CMOs and CROs know that we are incentivized for different things, right? It’s about designing a business GTM motion where neither role has to protect themselves at the expense of the other. And honestly, until that happens, this isn’t a bug, it’s a feature in your company. Like, this is this is this is not going to be resolved with how many, you know, 50 kumbayas and how many leadership retreats that you’re gonna go on, it’s not gonna get resolved because it’s a feature. It’s a it you people and companies have made this part of their ecosystem, part of their culture. And really the only way to kind of stop it is to design a motion that benefits both.
Akande Davis 12:42
Yeah, and if you are a CMO, CR listening to this, you know, there this isn’t about how to align. It’s about to make sure that your role is structurally set up for success. So it, you know, you’re probably never gonna agree. You’re probably never going to align. You will always likely be incentivized to compete and butt heads with your CRO, with your CMO. But really, it’s about as a CMO, as a CRO, am I set up for success? Am I set up to win? Am I gonna get what I need out of my role and out of my team to make this a reality, to make it a to make it a successful company? I think that’s kind of the the the question that we need to highlight. And you’re you’re not you’re not bad at what you do. You know, it’s not you, it’s the system. Yeah, right.
Raja Walia 13:21
Yeah, I mean, and I think CMOs and CROs, like once again, I think I’ve said it before, like they we don’t they don’t disagree because they’re bad leaders, right? I mean, there might be bad leaders out there, but generally, right, right. Generally, the disagreement part is probably not because one leader isn’t doing as much to keep their job as the next leader. Everyone wants to not get fired. I feel like that’s a universal kind of thing. However, the the disagreement is there because the system is rewarding it. And until companies stop designing these kind of leadership competing incentives, uh, this fight’s not going anywhere. So, really, what you have to do is you have to structure, you have to figure out how do you kind of, you know, uh work inside the chaos a little bit. Yeah, and I think that’s if you’re like if you’re a CRO and you’re a CMO and you’re listening to this, you know, I would love to hear like what your incentive, what are you incentivized for?
Akande Davis 14:17
Yeah, I I want to hit what you said because I think that’s an important thing. Why are CROs and CMOs incentivized to disagree? Because their company rewards it. That’s why. Like that’s that’s a really powerful takeaway that you said there, Raja. And I mean, if you are listening and you are in one of these roles, we would love to hear your thoughts on this and kind of what has been the driver behind this incentive, maybe in your own company, or what you’ve seen when you’ve come into these board meetings or these leadership meetings, presented your findings, and they contrast or maybe even uh contradict what the other person is saying. Love to know how you guys are navigating that. But with that being said, thank you for tuning in to this episode of Call It RevOps.
